(no subject)

[holzman_tweed]

Yanked from blackthornglade

I've also posted this to soc.feminism:

From time to time, the topic of Female Genital Mutilation has come up
in soc.feminism. I have on occasion been excoriated for suggesting
that, as abhorrent as we find the practise, the West's history of
interacting with Third World behooves us to adopt a certain humility
and caution in approaching the issue rather than proclaiming what
is Good and Bad and demanding broad bans without actually engaging
the women who are actually affected by what happens.

Today, in Georgia, we are presented with a more perfect example of why
I hold that position than I could have ever hoped to be handed on a
silver platter.

http://www.accessnorthga.com/news/ap_newfullstory.asp?ID=34411

In the name of countering Female Genital Mutilation, the Georgia House
of Representatives has unaminously voted to ban female genital
piercings, punsihable by 20 years in prison.

Even if she's an adult.
Even if she wants to get one.

Note that men are still free to get their respective penii pierced.

The sponsor of the amendment was flabberghasted to find out that some
women actually do want to get their genitals pierced, but doesn't
think that's any reason to allow women autonomy over their bodies.

"I, uh, I wouldn't approve of anyone doing it. I don't think that's
an appropriate thing to be doing."

It's left as an exercise to the reader what further restrictions could
be written into law if this bill becomes law and passes Constitutional
muster.

Things like this are what happen when we play Great White Civilizer Of
The Savages. It's a habit we must be diligent in breaking. It is not
possible to indulge in the habit without breaking more than we fix.
It's not something we can do just a little for a good cause and then
stop.

Comments

[lothie.livejournal.com]

I remember when I first heard of "female circumcision", from a group dedicated to seeing it wiped out. And I timidly asked, "But how do the women feel about it?" Wow, you'd think I'd said "fuck" in church or something.

This is truly abhorrent. Does this mean that I and my labia rings can't visit my gf in Georgia now?

[eberg.livejournal.com]

Sorry, but I have a lot of trouble drawing an analogy between the forced mutilation of children for the express purpose of reducing their ability to feel pleasure with the consentual choices of adults to adorn their bodies with jewelry.

[eberg.livejournal.com]

I think that the feelings of the women involved aren't necessary pertinent to the ethics of the practice. Just as a child who has been systematically abused since the same age can be said to have a healthy, informed perspective of their own abuse. In both cases, it is at the hands of their parents, people they trust, and they are told that it is alright their entire life.

Nor do I think that our guilt at past mistakes relieves us of our right (or responsibility) to stand up for our moral judgements. And sure, it is a tricky issue, because those pricks in Georgia would say that's what they are doing. But that's always been the case. The separation between secular and religious ethics has always been a difficult issue, but just because it is muddy doesn't mean we stand by and watch children mutilated without saying anything.

Now, if a grown woman wants to cut off her labia, that's fine. Knock yourself out. But you can't tell me an eight-year-old without a say in the matter and being told to submit to it by their parents is a consentual party.

Eric

[aliza250.livejournal.com]

*boggle*

But then again, tattoos are illegal in Boston.

- Aliza, happy with her two genital piercings.

[vulgarweed.livejournal.com]

I think I'm with Eric on this one.

Certain elements within our culture have always had trouble with the idea that consenting adults ought to be able to make choices for themselves whether Joe Stuffshirt Legislator approves of them or not. That's still a very different issue than permanent alterations made to the bodies of children. (Full disclosure: In my mom's country, it's very traditional to pierce the ears of baby girls. I even have a few pairs of very pretty, incredibly tiny baby-sized earrings my grandfather sent us. Mom decided not to do that with me because she thought I should choose for myself when I was older. Not on par with FGM by ANY stretch, but in miniature, I think the principle could apply).

Even though what is "traditional" in American culture changes all the time (and very often for the better) I think it's reasonable that laws are often made taking those traditions into account. It's good when that's open for discussion -- it should always be up for re-evaluation. But the US as a whole has no tradition of FGM for children, and if we, as a culture, find it abhorrent, I certainly have no problem with deciding it's illegal HERE. We have lots of laws that aren't universal, and some of them--laws against cruelty to animals, for example, or, theoretically, control of the state over the press, or even certain traffic restrictions--I think are a damn good thing. I have no problem with telling immigrants, from anywhere, that these are the laws and you live by them if you live here. I wouldn't move to another country and think I can do things considered horrible crimes there with impunity just because it's MY culture.

Activism about FGM in other countries, and cultures, I agree that's a muddier issue, and I agree we must guard against that White Civilizing Influence crap. I would argue that that Wise White Father bullshit is exactly what our "friends" in Georgia are doing: unable to tell the difference between adornment and mutilation (and squicked beyond all belief at even having to contemplate words like "clitoris" and "labia," I'm sure), and unable to tell the difference between adult women's choice and abuse of children (because there's so little difference between women and children in their minds), they pass a Draconian piece of idiocy that helps no one. But they think they know better than those "primitives"--even the "modern" ones.

Oops, forgot!

[vulgarweed.livejournal.com]

I also meant to say that though there's no "tradition" of FGM in the US, it has been practiced in a medical context in the past -- as treatment for "nymphomania," "hysteria," and other fictional maladies we sickly women used to be thought prone to. I want to make sure that should some quack start up again (as happens still from time to time--remember that 'doctor' in Dayton who decided to 'rearrange' some women 15 years or so ago), that there's a book to throw at him. Preferably a very heavy hardcover.

[lothie.livejournal.com]

That's immaterial; the question is, is it our right, or anyone's, to interfere?

And I don't pretend to have the answer to that. I'm just glad I'm not the ONLY one asking the question.

[holzman.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't have found them analogous, either, but that didn't stop the entire Georgia House of Representatives from managing to.

[cheshyre]

But then again, tattoos are illegal in Boston
That was true in the past, but a court overturned the statewide ban in 2000. It's also now legal for liquor stores to open on Sundays with city/town approval.

[holzman.livejournal.com]

This is a broad issue touching on alot of things in a rather nuanced fashion. I'm trying to be very specific about what it is I'm talking about, but it may be that I've managed to be unclear.

What's legal in Georgia or the rest of America is a matter of "our" culture (for certain degrees of "our," which becomes another complexity -- there are ways in which I'm entitled to a say about what's legal in Georgia because we both partake of American culture, there are ways in which I'm not because Georgia culture is not the same thing as New York culture.)

The issue about piercing a baby's ears is very apt, though, since it is something that happens commonly amongst several of the cultures that make up "USA" culture. That it's not on par with FGM in extremity doesn't change that the issues at stake are the same issues.

I've heard plenty of people insist that "those people" who pierce their baby girls' ears are committing "child abuse" because of the consent issue. They're taking their culture, making pronouncements about what's Good and Bad with no attempt to understand what's happenning from the perspective of the culture who owns the practise and agitating for power-over based intervention to make the Bad Thing stop.

In the meantime, I've heard plenty of women from "those" cultures aghast at the notion that they not pierce their daughters' ears. They express concern that their daughters will grow up thinking that they are unloved because within the context of those cultures the piercing is a communication to the child and to the world about the parent's regard for the child. To not pierce would be to announce to the world that one held the child to be worthless, which they maintain would be child abuse.

By some process that wasn't a ban imposed by force, your mother came to decide to change her viewpoint from that of her birth culture. I don't think someone telling her that she was horrible for even considering the question would have gotten very far in convicing her, and may have even pushed her to defend against attack by identifying more closely with the practise.

The position I've staked out is that this approach to addressing what we find wrong in other people's cultures is questionable at best, both in terms of ethics and effectiveness. The opposition I usually get to that position, including in this discussion, seems to be based in a certainty of the superiority of our cultural values to which we simply have no right. Unsurprisingly, it seems to come hand-in-hand with a dualistic belief that if one doesn't support power-over-based bans one must necessarily support taking no action whatsoever. There appears to be no room in that mindset for the notion that persuasion and discussion, from a position of respect for the other person and their culture, might be an approach. I maintain that it's the only approach that will work. In the case of FGM, there's been ban after ban, and yet here we are coming up with more and broader bans because banning FGM doesn't stop it any more than banning alcohol does.

I know I'm discussing a number of positions here that you haven't taken, and it's not my intention to ascribe them to you. It's just that this is all linked together, and it's much easier for me to present the whole picture in a single piece than try to break it out.

[starstraf.livejournal.com]

I know at least a few years ago sex toys were illegal in Atlanta. I have a friend that was busted because he (ftm) was packing.

Re: Oops, forgot!

[holzman.livejournal.com]

Dr. James C. Burt.

I still search the web from time to time to see if he's crawled out from that rock we chased him under.

For those not familiar with late '90s Antioch College hitory, Dr. Burt was a ob/gyn at Dayton's St. Elizabeth Hospital. Burt had some peculiar theories about how a woman's genetalia should be structured so as to render them, in his words, "horny little mice."

He had even more peculiar theories about medical ethics, and a lot of women found out the hard way that they had been surgically altered while they'd been under general anesthesia for procedures that had nothing to do with restructuring their genetalia. Finding out the hard way involves, I am told, amazing quantities of pain.

Burt was just about ran out of town on a rail, but only because Ohio NOW, with the aid of some very enthusiastic Antioch students, put picket lines in front of the hospital and a class action lawsuit in the courts.

Now, he's literally a textbook example of malpractise. Unfortunately, I read that he's enjoying a comfortable retirement in Florida... though it wouldn't surprise me if undisclosed maladies of a rather personal nature make it only seem as if he's comfortable.

Re: Oops, forgot!

[sara-wolfe.livejournal.com]

I looked over the chapter you posted, and I can't find the footnote. Do you know where I might find it? I have been trying to locate this doctor's book for quite a while with no luck. It's not even in the library of congress!

If you find anything out, would you please let me know? Thanks.

Re: Oops, forgot!

[holzman.livejournal.com]

Sorry for the delay getting back to you.

My understanding is that his book was a vanity publishing, and he may never have registered it with anyone. I find it on neither amazon nor abebooks.

Re: Oops, forgot!

[sara-wolfe.livejournal.com]

I found it in one library in Ohio. I put an Interlibrary Loan for it, but not sure if they'll part with it. Damn. I'll let you know if I get a copy.

You're never going to believe this!

[sara-wolfe.livejournal.com]

I just got the notice through ILL that it's waiting for me at the library. Woohoo! Let me know if you want a scan or something (probably not the whole thing though).

I can't believe I'm excited about this. I've just been trying to track it for almost 15 years now!