Things that make you go HMMM...

[holzman_tweed]

Since I'm planning on attending Arisia this year, I took a look at the program precis.

Several years ago, jadegirl and I attended Chicon 2000. While we were there, she overheard some people discussing "marginalized groups in fandom." She had thought this might be a discussion of people coming from demographics that tend not to be very well represented in fandom, such as Blacks or the poor. To her shock and consternation, it turned out that they were talking about Klingons and Furries -- fanish groups who are marginalized within fandom.

Time passes.

This year, Barbara Hambly is the guest of honor. Ms. Hambly has made a career of writing stories about people who are very powerful in one regard but severely constrained because of their membership in a marginalized group in society. For example, powerful wizards who must agree not to use their power on non-magi even in self defense because the magi realize the non-magi will overwhelm them and kill them if they aren't convinced they're safe. Or wizards who are constrained in what they may do in society because they happen to be women.

Most recently, she's been writing historical fiction mysteries about one Benjamin January, A Free Man of Color. Musician, Paris-trained surgeon, and veteran soldier, he is constrained by the realities of his race in New Orleans in the early 1800s. She's had a thing or two to say about the structure and function of American racism in the 8 or so books in this series to date.

So it is a defaning silence, or perhaps a blinding darkness, to find that in a program precis that contans multiple panels about sexual orientation, gender, transgender, disability, and nationality that there is not one single panel about race.

Klingons and Romulans don't count.

Hopefully, there will be a last minute rectification to this inexplicable gap that is only possible by completely ignoring the last 8 years of the GoH's career.

Or else, let us pose the question: Why are fans so unwilling to talk about race?

Comments

[jeliza]

I agree that it is a problem; we have been starting to have interesting panels along these lines here out west, at Norwescon, Black to the Future, and Orycon, though I suspect it is the presence of local writers like Octavia Butler, Nisi Shawl (who leads, with Cynthia Ward, a writer's workshop on Writing the Other) and Nalo Hopkinson that are helping to really bring the issue to the forefront.

[gkrikket.livejournal.com]

As someone who's on the Con Com (Press Liaison) I believe it's simply a matter that no one thought about it.

Would you like me to forward this message to the Arisia staff mailing list?

I assume it's something like:

[firinel.livejournal.com]

(more self-identified 'white' people than other minorities involved in fandoms = primarily white people on panels maing desicions about what'll be included) + (white people not personally having experience = not thining to include that topic) = not one single panel about race.

[uncacreamy.livejournal.com]

It might be that people in general aren't willing to discuss it. It's become so risky to even mention it.. people are afraid to be labeled racist if they have any opinions that don't line up with current popular thinking, I guess... tough to even discuss it.

[rmjwell.livejournal.com]

"There are no racial problems in fandom; people of color can join fandom just like anyone else." The preceding is an almost direct quote from one of the concom members at Duck, Windy, or Cap a few years ago.

Race

[hunterkirk.livejournal.com]

The idea that ever group in the USA must be balance mix of all races is just crazy. I have never seen any effort to exclude blacks or any other race from fandom. The thing is that many blacks are simply not interested in it. Why this is the case who can say. Purhaps it is because within the "black comunity" such things as science fiction are not promoted whil rape and sports are. Purhaps it simply that in the areas in which fandom happens most of the people tend not to be black.

A interesting thing happened in the makeing of the "Planet of the Apes".. during lunch breaks the people kept their costumes on and went to eat. With out any direction they seperated themselves by type of they were dressed as. It seems vissual cues sometimes create a sense of comunitie when in truth there is none. Since under the costumes they were of mix population. Maybe the large white population in fandom makes blacks "feel" unwelcome even though there is no effort on the part of fandom to prohibit them from joining in the fun.

Just some thoughts

Re: Race

[hunterkirk.livejournal.com]

Sorry a BAD typo.... I meant RAP AND SPORTS.... NOT RAPE AND SPORTS.... sorry.

[holzman.livejournal.com]

Please do! I very much want to hear Barbara Hambly talk about race -- both in terms of writing the January books and in terms of fandom.

Re: I assume it's something like:

[firinel.livejournal.com]

my 'k' key seems to only work when I use extreme force.. sorry about that.

[chorus.livejournal.com]

I think part of the problem is this weird perception that if you talk about gender and sexual orientation, you're sensitive, but if you talk about race, you're a bigot. It's the whole PC 'colorblind' mentality gone septic, which I plan to rename "The SciFi Earthsea Syndrome".

As to why fandom is overwhelmingly white-oriented, I suspect that some of it may have to do with the fact that sff books and movies are overwhelmingly populated by white people. I doubt that's all of it -- it's hardly as if it's impossible for someone to identify with a character of a different race -- but I would imagine it figures into it.

[wild-irises.livejournal.com]

You may or may not know this, but you also want to hear the fan guest of honor, Victor Raymond (aka badger2305), who is half Native American, half Scottish, talk about race. Trust me on this. And he wants there to be panels on race.

As for your bigger question, fans are unwilling to talk about race for the identical reasons that Americans are unwilling to talk about race. At Potlatch and WisCon, race is a constant and crucial topic, for the same reason that it surfaces again and again at lefty/progressive gatherings all over America.

Want a deeper answer? You could give one as well as you could get one, I expect.

.02 Anthropology-bucks

[docstrange.livejournal.com]

Race is hard to talk about. Not because it's a painful topic for some (the term alone can start fires), but because it's HARD to talk about "it." Just using the word presupposes there is a concept we hold in common when we talk about it, so we CAN talk about it. Beyond anything else we talk about as a societal issue, race is probably the one that means the least in common to the many who talk about "it." It's hard because "race" is tossed about as a kind of fetish, with many imbued meanings and varied significances. Which is to say, it's hard to have a real talk about "race" because intelligent people who decide to talk about "race" are often talking about slightly (or entirely) different things (sometimes the speaker even changes mid-stream what they mean).

Indeed, many people will hold several, conflicting ideas of what 'it' is -- which to them will not seem in conflict until pressed (at which time hostility ensues, because a basis of their world-defining tools suddenly seems at risk). It's a classic cognitive dissonance word. The word's use in the press, in the sciences, in encyclopedias, etc. has changed a good five times in the last 100 years. Sometimes radically. Yikes.

What do people mean by race? Recent heredity? Cultural upbringing? Genetically distinct groups of people who, over time have mixed? The distribution of genetic clusters among many human populations, which clusters have been redistributed, altered, and shuffled into new concentrations throughout human history by geologic, climatic, and socio-political forces? The division of larger social groups by political and cultural forces into locally-relevant clusters which are then fetishized so as to treat them as having biological bases? A descent from a long line of people of one true "blood" going back to the children of the Ark? A label others give them and they have to live with?

As you can imagine, a lot of people also have a core understanding of "race" based on some things that just aren't actually true. Others use it in direct reflection of how the term is used socially, as in discussion of "race politics" -- a solid basis, but not if other people think they're talking about some mythical pure biology thing.

If you're having to fine-slice terms to encompass the word "race," then you know for sure others will be slicing it differently unless you all agree on what you're actually want to talk about (without using the magic word), first. Many discussions on the topic of "race" will devolve rapidly as the parties involved talk right past each other, each holding very different ideas of what they're talking about.

A great book on how that plays out in every-day society (in New Orleans, by no small coincidence) is White by Definition: Social Classification in Creole Louisiana, which looked at the modern (in the 1970s) play-out of those very issues Hambly lets take the stage in her fiction. ObDisclosure: Prof. Dominguez was my advisor for 4 years.

Hell, biology, genetics, anthropology, and sociology all use the word differently, to the point that, in chapter 1, you're going to find the author defining terms (even in biology books). Might as well use "blerp," define it, and move on, using "blerp" the whole way.

That's why it's hard to talk about "race."

[ladyofthelog.livejournal.com]

I <3 the Benjamin January books! (Anything to do with well-researched historical New Orleans makes me v. happy - especially when voudoon* gets thrown in.)

Most of fandom is pasty white boys? (While there is remarkable diversity within the fannish community, the fact that there is a predominance of said PWBs (and PWGs, Gay PWBs, etc..) does seem to be the first conclusion I'd jump to, unfortunately.)

* Am magickal n00b, so forgive me if this is not quite the word I mean to select. As far as I know it is more proper than "voodoo."

[holzman.livejournal.com]

I am so glad that I have White people from midwestern suburbs to tell me that there are no racial problems. I might otherwise think that there was more to the question of racism than whether there's overt discrimination in place. I'm glad they cleared that up for me.

Re: Race

[holzman.livejournal.com]

I was asking why a mostly White group has it occur to them to talk about gender, sexual orientation, and disability but not race or class even though the Guest of Honor has been writing primarily about race for the last decade.

Since I didn't say anything about whether a group in the USA had to be a balanced mix of races, I'm not sure why you bring it up. What's up with that?

"The thing is that many blacks are simply not interested in it. Why this is the case who can say."

That's just the thing -- I know for a fact that there are people who can say because I've on rare occasion heard them say it. My point is that it's a topic worth discussing rather than throwing up our hands and saying "who can say?"

I'm also saying that there's more to talk about when discussing race and class in a fannish context than "where are all the black people?"

• What are the challenges of writing about characters who are a different race than you? How is it different from writing about people who are a different species?
  
• What influences would scientific developments -- hard and soft -- have on race relationships human and otherwise?
  
• Why are all the alien species we see so homogonized?
  

Purhaps it simply that in the areas in which fandom happens most of the people tend not to be black.

That dog won't hunt. Fandom is huge in New York and Chicago, to name two places that have more than a smattering of Black people.

Maybe the large white population in fandom makes blacks "feel" unwelcome even though there is no effort on the part of fandom to prohibit them from joining in the fun.

Maybe there is. If there is, is that something to simply accept and ignore, or might it make sense for the large White population in fandom to ask "What is it about me that's so off-putting to Blacks?"

[holzman.livejournal.com]

I certainly do! Perhaps if it doesn't happen in the programming, a less formal panel might spring up. :)

Re: .02 Anthropology-bucks

[holzman.livejournal.com]

I knew you were going to have alot of excellent stuff to say about it.

Thanks for the book reference. I'll have to check it out shortly after I finish the two you sent for Yule -- which are excellent.

[jrittenhouse.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's an unwillingness to talk about it so much as it doesn't cross their minds.

Most fans are of a generally similar milieu, and try to paper over differences as much as possible, considering the fannish community as a supra-institution that trancends national or ethnic origin. Said differences become more 'colorful' additions to the mix, and things like rampant Furrydom or Media addiction of whatever stripe being seen as more relevant issues.

The more something comes from the outside and is way different, the more the fans will avoid it as either 'something dark and icky' or 'you're pissing me off when I'm having fun with my friends.'

Start talking about your religion very strongly in fannish circles, and you will see people back off.

Race doesn't exclude people from fandom according to this insight. Socio-economic stuff does. Get some hardshell poor ethnics of whatever stripe (including good old boys) roaming through the hall at a con and watch the fans shrink back in revulsion and horror. Has nothing to do with race. Has everything to do with class, with their in-your-face anger, with distance from an educated urban-suburban milieu.

I remember a funeral some years ago of a well-beloved local fan who was black and had died from AIDS. The funeral home was in a distressed part of Chicago, and was *very* busy with all sorts of funerals. Including the drive-through window. As we came in, you could see that there was a BIG room upstriars that looked more like the inside of a small cathedral and you could hear a massed black choir singing up there.

The fan's family (very religious) were, of course, in charge of the funeral. The mourners were basically grouped into family (black) and fannish friends (suburban whites). The funeral was very typical for that sort of black religious milieu, and it totally threw the suburban white kids, who didn't have a clue as to what the hell was going on, and why people were acting that way.

I've seen a ton of ethnic despite in my time. The Nazis would call me a race traitor for adopting my daughter from China. The Chinese called me a Gwailo and laughed at me. Fuck 'em all.

The only way that you cure ethnic problems is to get everyone to realize that their attitude about those dammned whoevers down the road is full of shit. The hardest barrier I've found for myself is to be able to deal with rural Southern poor whites with an attitude.

Both my grandfathers were Klan members before the Second World War, when it was seen as perfectly respectable to be so.

I reject that. I reject the Nazi Olsen Twins. (http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=4330) I reject the Race Traitor (http://www.languageofblood.com/2004/06/race-traitor.html) people who feel that it's necessary to take a race-positioned view of the world, and think that only whites are racists. And I reject the people who think that diversity allows them to be racists, or ethnic snobs.

[jrittenhouse.livejournal.com]

Science Fiction is overwhelmingly (a) literature for (b) people who believe that there is a future ahead, that it matters and is interesting, and that they'd like to be part of it. If you're poor, have no concept of a future with you in it and nothing matters more than the present, and aren't terribly literate anyway, you're not likely to read SF, or give a crap for it aside of thinking that those zap guns in some movie are way cool. Race isn't as much an isuue as the attitude that you've developed in these matters from your socio-economic viewpoint.

[jrittenhouse.livejournal.com]

Of course there are racial problems. I deal with them all the time. But they're *nothing* compared to the way things were when I was growing up in Dayton, Ohio in the 1960s.

Back then, on the east side of Dayton, it was quite common to hear the 'N' word, a word I can't use as a European nowadays without trouble. I can talk about masturbation in mixed company with less of a fuss than I can get by using that word in the same company.

[holzman.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's an unwillingness to talk about it so much as it doesn't cross their minds.

Most of the time, that doesn't surprise me. What makes it so strange this time is that the GoH is Barbara Hambly, and she's been talking about race for 10 years now. I don't get how someone can be paying enough attention to her to come up with her for a GoH and not think of talking about race -- especially when it is occurring to people to talk about all those other things.

[holzman.livejournal.com]

Of course there are racial problems.

You know that, and I know that, but apparently a bunch of folks in Chicago area Smofdom don't know that.

I know things are better than they were in the 1960s, but that was 40 years ago. Are things better than the 70s, 80s, and 90s? Do such achievements have an "expiration date" such that means something very different to say "Things are better than they were in the 1960s" in 1974 than in 2004?

Re: Race

[hunterkirk.livejournal.com]

"I was asking why a mostly White group has it occur to them to talk about gender, sexual orientation, and disability but not race or class even though the Guest of Honor has been writing primarily about race for the last decade."

Maybe it is because it isn't a big ticket button now of days. Although a Guest of Honor may focus on it, it does not mean that this issue is "hot" this year. Saddly recent politics in general has had little to nothing to do with race.

"Since I didn't say anything about whether a group in the USA had to be a balanced mix of races, I'm not sure why you bring it up. What's up with that?"

I brought it up since you seemed concerned about the mix of the population in fandom. As noted by one of you last responces. I don't think it is our civic duty to make sure that every group has the proper mix. I think it is our civic duty to make groups open to all but if other groups don't wish to join in their should be no worries about it.

"That's just the thing -- I know for a fact that there are people who can say because I've on rare occasion heard them say it. My point is that it's a topic worth discussing rather than throwing up our hands and saying "who can say?""

I think it is outside of our relm of control. Fandoms hand has been open and welcoming for a very long time now. If races other then white want to join the door has been open and that is the best we can do. I think there is little point in going out and tring to force a interest on groups who are not interested. Now purhaps a few good new freash science fiction writers being Black and well received in the Black comunity would change all that.

"What are the challenges of writing about characters who are a different race than you? How is it different from writing about people who are a different species?

What influences would scientific developments -- hard and soft -- have on race relationships human and otherwise?

Why are all the alien species we see so homogonized?"

As for writting... I think in time there will be more diverse races of Science Fiction writers. When they do bring books out this may increase the interest of other races in fandom. As for the challenges of writer for a character that you are not, well it is a well worn topic and full of generalizations. Lastly as for the homogonized alien races... I think that is just the difficulty of our human mind. A writer can only think as one person. So the characters in any book will have common behaviors... including alien races.

"That dog won't hunt. Fandom is huge in New York and Chicago, to name two places that have more than a smattering of Black people.

Maybe there is. If there is, is that something to simply accept and ignore, or might it make sense for the large White population in fandom to ask "What is it about me that's so off-putting to Blacks?"

I feel the best you can do is open the door and put out the welcome mat. If people of one group or another choose not to enter then that is their problem not ours. We are not bad people because they have choosen not to join in. If they do come in and then we can all have a good time, but I see no real reason to tring "fix" a race inbalance with in fandom which has been very open and welcomeing for a very long time. If they want to join the door is open and they are more then welcome. If not well that is their choice. The very nature of freedom.

[rmjwell.livejournal.com]

It was like the old joke about discrimination against blacks in Minnesota: "We have no problems with discrimiination against blacks. Of course, we have no blacks in Minnesota."

Of course, one could make the argument that dropping several hundred dollars for a weekend of hanging out with fans does veer towards people who have the several hundred sheckels to drop, i.e., wealthy fuckers (who in the US tend to be paler than most other folks).

[rmjwell.livejournal.com]

I need to find the User Friendly cartoon for occasions like this, but it is the one where one of the characters asks an angry mob "Well, what part of the end-user license did you read?" and the the mob replies, "'I agree.'"

One doesn't always have to be on people being oblivious, but few folk have lost money on that proposition.