Things that make you go HMMM...

[holzman_tweed]

Since I'm planning on attending Arisia this year, I took a look at the program precis.

Several years ago, jadegirl and I attended Chicon 2000. While we were there, she overheard some people discussing "marginalized groups in fandom." She had thought this might be a discussion of people coming from demographics that tend not to be very well represented in fandom, such as Blacks or the poor. To her shock and consternation, it turned out that they were talking about Klingons and Furries -- fanish groups who are marginalized within fandom.

Time passes.

This year, Barbara Hambly is the guest of honor. Ms. Hambly has made a career of writing stories about people who are very powerful in one regard but severely constrained because of their membership in a marginalized group in society. For example, powerful wizards who must agree not to use their power on non-magi even in self defense because the magi realize the non-magi will overwhelm them and kill them if they aren't convinced they're safe. Or wizards who are constrained in what they may do in society because they happen to be women.

Most recently, she's been writing historical fiction mysteries about one Benjamin January, A Free Man of Color. Musician, Paris-trained surgeon, and veteran soldier, he is constrained by the realities of his race in New Orleans in the early 1800s. She's had a thing or two to say about the structure and function of American racism in the 8 or so books in this series to date.

So it is a defaning silence, or perhaps a blinding darkness, to find that in a program precis that contans multiple panels about sexual orientation, gender, transgender, disability, and nationality that there is not one single panel about race.

Klingons and Romulans don't count.

Hopefully, there will be a last minute rectification to this inexplicable gap that is only possible by completely ignoring the last 8 years of the GoH's career.

Or else, let us pose the question: Why are fans so unwilling to talk about race?

Comments

[jeliza]

I agree that it is a problem; we have been starting to have interesting panels along these lines here out west, at Norwescon, Black to the Future, and Orycon, though I suspect it is the presence of local writers like Octavia Butler, Nisi Shawl (who leads, with Cynthia Ward, a writer's workshop on Writing the Other) and Nalo Hopkinson that are helping to really bring the issue to the forefront.

[gkrikket.livejournal.com]

As someone who's on the Con Com (Press Liaison) I believe it's simply a matter that no one thought about it.

Would you like me to forward this message to the Arisia staff mailing list?

[holzman.livejournal.com]

Please do! I very much want to hear Barbara Hambly talk about race -- both in terms of writing the January books and in terms of fandom.

I assume it's something like:

[firinel.livejournal.com]

(more self-identified 'white' people than other minorities involved in fandoms = primarily white people on panels maing desicions about what'll be included) + (white people not personally having experience = not thining to include that topic) = not one single panel about race.

Re: I assume it's something like:

[firinel.livejournal.com]

my 'k' key seems to only work when I use extreme force.. sorry about that.

[uncacreamy.livejournal.com]

It might be that people in general aren't willing to discuss it. It's become so risky to even mention it.. people are afraid to be labeled racist if they have any opinions that don't line up with current popular thinking, I guess... tough to even discuss it.

[rmjwell.livejournal.com]

"There are no racial problems in fandom; people of color can join fandom just like anyone else." The preceding is an almost direct quote from one of the concom members at Duck, Windy, or Cap a few years ago.

[holzman.livejournal.com]

I am so glad that I have White people from midwestern suburbs to tell me that there are no racial problems. I might otherwise think that there was more to the question of racism than whether there's overt discrimination in place. I'm glad they cleared that up for me.

Race

[hunterkirk.livejournal.com]

The idea that ever group in the USA must be balance mix of all races is just crazy. I have never seen any effort to exclude blacks or any other race from fandom. The thing is that many blacks are simply not interested in it. Why this is the case who can say. Purhaps it is because within the "black comunity" such things as science fiction are not promoted whil rape and sports are. Purhaps it simply that in the areas in which fandom happens most of the people tend not to be black.

A interesting thing happened in the makeing of the "Planet of the Apes".. during lunch breaks the people kept their costumes on and went to eat. With out any direction they seperated themselves by type of they were dressed as. It seems vissual cues sometimes create a sense of comunitie when in truth there is none. Since under the costumes they were of mix population. Maybe the large white population in fandom makes blacks "feel" unwelcome even though there is no effort on the part of fandom to prohibit them from joining in the fun.

Just some thoughts

Re: Race

[hunterkirk.livejournal.com]

Sorry a BAD typo.... I meant RAP AND SPORTS.... NOT RAPE AND SPORTS.... sorry.

Re: Race

[holzman.livejournal.com]

I was asking why a mostly White group has it occur to them to talk about gender, sexual orientation, and disability but not race or class even though the Guest of Honor has been writing primarily about race for the last decade.

Since I didn't say anything about whether a group in the USA had to be a balanced mix of races, I'm not sure why you bring it up. What's up with that?

"The thing is that many blacks are simply not interested in it. Why this is the case who can say."

That's just the thing -- I know for a fact that there are people who can say because I've on rare occasion heard them say it. My point is that it's a topic worth discussing rather than throwing up our hands and saying "who can say?"

I'm also saying that there's more to talk about when discussing race and class in a fannish context than "where are all the black people?"

• What are the challenges of writing about characters who are a different race than you? How is it different from writing about people who are a different species?
  
• What influences would scientific developments -- hard and soft -- have on race relationships human and otherwise?
  
• Why are all the alien species we see so homogonized?
  

Purhaps it simply that in the areas in which fandom happens most of the people tend not to be black.

That dog won't hunt. Fandom is huge in New York and Chicago, to name two places that have more than a smattering of Black people.

Maybe the large white population in fandom makes blacks "feel" unwelcome even though there is no effort on the part of fandom to prohibit them from joining in the fun.

Maybe there is. If there is, is that something to simply accept and ignore, or might it make sense for the large White population in fandom to ask "What is it about me that's so off-putting to Blacks?"

[chorus.livejournal.com]

I think part of the problem is this weird perception that if you talk about gender and sexual orientation, you're sensitive, but if you talk about race, you're a bigot. It's the whole PC 'colorblind' mentality gone septic, which I plan to rename "The SciFi Earthsea Syndrome".

As to why fandom is overwhelmingly white-oriented, I suspect that some of it may have to do with the fact that sff books and movies are overwhelmingly populated by white people. I doubt that's all of it -- it's hardly as if it's impossible for someone to identify with a character of a different race -- but I would imagine it figures into it.

[jrittenhouse.livejournal.com]

Science Fiction is overwhelmingly (a) literature for (b) people who believe that there is a future ahead, that it matters and is interesting, and that they'd like to be part of it. If you're poor, have no concept of a future with you in it and nothing matters more than the present, and aren't terribly literate anyway, you're not likely to read SF, or give a crap for it aside of thinking that those zap guns in some movie are way cool. Race isn't as much an isuue as the attitude that you've developed in these matters from your socio-economic viewpoint.

[wild-irises.livejournal.com]

You may or may not know this, but you also want to hear the fan guest of honor, Victor Raymond (aka badger2305), who is half Native American, half Scottish, talk about race. Trust me on this. And he wants there to be panels on race.

As for your bigger question, fans are unwilling to talk about race for the identical reasons that Americans are unwilling to talk about race. At Potlatch and WisCon, race is a constant and crucial topic, for the same reason that it surfaces again and again at lefty/progressive gatherings all over America.

Want a deeper answer? You could give one as well as you could get one, I expect.

[holzman.livejournal.com]

I certainly do! Perhaps if it doesn't happen in the programming, a less formal panel might spring up. :)

.02 Anthropology-bucks

[docstrange.livejournal.com]

Race is hard to talk about. Not because it's a painful topic for some (the term alone can start fires), but because it's HARD to talk about "it." Just using the word presupposes there is a concept we hold in common when we talk about it, so we CAN talk about it. Beyond anything else we talk about as a societal issue, race is probably the one that means the least in common to the many who talk about "it." It's hard because "race" is tossed about as a kind of fetish, with many imbued meanings and varied significances. Which is to say, it's hard to have a real talk about "race" because intelligent people who decide to talk about "race" are often talking about slightly (or entirely) different things (sometimes the speaker even changes mid-stream what they mean).

Indeed, many people will hold several, conflicting ideas of what 'it' is -- which to them will not seem in conflict until pressed (at which time hostility ensues, because a basis of their world-defining tools suddenly seems at risk). It's a classic cognitive dissonance word. The word's use in the press, in the sciences, in encyclopedias, etc. has changed a good five times in the last 100 years. Sometimes radically. Yikes.

What do people mean by race? Recent heredity? Cultural upbringing? Genetically distinct groups of people who, over time have mixed? The distribution of genetic clusters among many human populations, which clusters have been redistributed, altered, and shuffled into new concentrations throughout human history by geologic, climatic, and socio-political forces? The division of larger social groups by political and cultural forces into locally-relevant clusters which are then fetishized so as to treat them as having biological bases? A descent from a long line of people of one true "blood" going back to the children of the Ark? A label others give them and they have to live with?

As you can imagine, a lot of people also have a core understanding of "race" based on some things that just aren't actually true. Others use it in direct reflection of how the term is used socially, as in discussion of "race politics" -- a solid basis, but not if other people think they're talking about some mythical pure biology thing.

If you're having to fine-slice terms to encompass the word "race," then you know for sure others will be slicing it differently unless you all agree on what you're actually want to talk about (without using the magic word), first. Many discussions on the topic of "race" will devolve rapidly as the parties involved talk right past each other, each holding very different ideas of what they're talking about.

A great book on how that plays out in every-day society (in New Orleans, by no small coincidence) is White by Definition: Social Classification in Creole Louisiana, which looked at the modern (in the 1970s) play-out of those very issues Hambly lets take the stage in her fiction. ObDisclosure: Prof. Dominguez was my advisor for 4 years.

Hell, biology, genetics, anthropology, and sociology all use the word differently, to the point that, in chapter 1, you're going to find the author defining terms (even in biology books). Might as well use "blerp," define it, and move on, using "blerp" the whole way.

That's why it's hard to talk about "race."

Re: .02 Anthropology-bucks

[holzman.livejournal.com]

I knew you were going to have alot of excellent stuff to say about it.

Thanks for the book reference. I'll have to check it out shortly after I finish the two you sent for Yule -- which are excellent.

[ladyofthelog.livejournal.com]

I <3 the Benjamin January books! (Anything to do with well-researched historical New Orleans makes me v. happy - especially when voudoon* gets thrown in.)

Most of fandom is pasty white boys? (While there is remarkable diversity within the fannish community, the fact that there is a predominance of said PWBs (and PWGs, Gay PWBs, etc..) does seem to be the first conclusion I'd jump to, unfortunately.)

* Am magickal n00b, so forgive me if this is not quite the word I mean to select. As far as I know it is more proper than "voodoo."

[jrittenhouse.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's an unwillingness to talk about it so much as it doesn't cross their minds.

Most fans are of a generally similar milieu, and try to paper over differences as much as possible, considering the fannish community as a supra-institution that trancends national or ethnic origin. Said differences become more 'colorful' additions to the mix, and things like rampant Furrydom or Media addiction of whatever stripe being seen as more relevant issues.

The more something comes from the outside and is way different, the more the fans will avoid it as either 'something dark and icky' or 'you're pissing me off when I'm having fun with my friends.'

Start talking about your religion very strongly in fannish circles, and you will see people back off.

Race doesn't exclude people from fandom according to this insight. Socio-economic stuff does. Get some hardshell poor ethnics of whatever stripe (including good old boys) roaming through the hall at a con and watch the fans shrink back in revulsion and horror. Has nothing to do with race. Has everything to do with class, with their in-your-face anger, with distance from an educated urban-suburban milieu.

I remember a funeral some years ago of a well-beloved local fan who was black and had died from AIDS. The funeral home was in a distressed part of Chicago, and was *very* busy with all sorts of funerals. Including the drive-through window. As we came in, you could see that there was a BIG room upstriars that looked more like the inside of a small cathedral and you could hear a massed black choir singing up there.

The fan's family (very religious) were, of course, in charge of the funeral. The mourners were basically grouped into family (black) and fannish friends (suburban whites). The funeral was very typical for that sort of black religious milieu, and it totally threw the suburban white kids, who didn't have a clue as to what the hell was going on, and why people were acting that way.

I've seen a ton of ethnic despite in my time. The Nazis would call me a race traitor for adopting my daughter from China. The Chinese called me a Gwailo and laughed at me. Fuck 'em all.

The only way that you cure ethnic problems is to get everyone to realize that their attitude about those dammned whoevers down the road is full of shit. The hardest barrier I've found for myself is to be able to deal with rural Southern poor whites with an attitude.

Both my grandfathers were Klan members before the Second World War, when it was seen as perfectly respectable to be so.

I reject that. I reject the Nazi Olsen Twins. (http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=4330) I reject the Race Traitor (http://www.languageofblood.com/2004/06/race-traitor.html) people who feel that it's necessary to take a race-positioned view of the world, and think that only whites are racists. And I reject the people who think that diversity allows them to be racists, or ethnic snobs.

[holzman.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's an unwillingness to talk about it so much as it doesn't cross their minds.

Most of the time, that doesn't surprise me. What makes it so strange this time is that the GoH is Barbara Hambly, and she's been talking about race for 10 years now. I don't get how someone can be paying enough attention to her to come up with her for a GoH and not think of talking about race -- especially when it is occurring to people to talk about all those other things.

White people don't think about race

[awfief.livejournal.com]

One of the advantages about being privileged is that, usually, you don't even know what you have. "Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack" and all. People will say, "well, someone should organize it" but really, that discussion should pervade EVERYONE'S lives, because racism affects everyone.

Fans seem willing to talk about it with regards to fictional races, and as you pointed out, sexism, homophobia, even class and religion, etc (people give discounts or free memberships for working). So it's not that they're unwilling to talk about it -- it's that it's not on their radar.

And THAT fact, that racism isn't on the radar of people in fandom, is the worst crime yet. As a member of a privileged class, it's my responsibility to help fight the oppression of those who are not privileged (or not as privileged).

Re: White people don't think about race

[dda.livejournal.com]

And THAT fact, that racism isn't on the radar of people in fandom, is the worst crime yet. As a member of a privileged class, it's my responsibility to help fight the oppression of those who are not privileged (or not as privileged).

I would seriously disagree with both parts of this statement. I set my own responsibilities (within the law) and highly resent someone else coming in and telling me what those responsibilities are, especially based on some system of their own devising.

[unclevlad.livejournal.com]

Ok, I decided to just sit back and watch this one for a while before jumping into the deep end.

To this day, I remember the first time someone informed me that my grandparents had owned his grandparents. He was using it as an excuse for demanding I surrender my place in the lunch line at a high school where he and his sister were the minorities (no, not part of them; they were it - two out of about 1,200). So as I stood there and patient explained to him the problem with his assertion (my family's geographic region is one that was forbidden by Roman Law to hold slaves; blame Spartacus), he went on and on and on about what I owed him and why. It ended badly.

Prior to that, I had no concept of what racism was. I had already been all over the world, and had interacted with people of a variety of skin tones, points of origin, cultural backgrounds, etc. And they were people. Yes, I understood that in various places various groups looked down upon various other groups. Sad, but my study of history had taught me that it had always been that way.

So, running head long into a new concept, I did my research. And I was amazed that everyone was willing to write about it, and rant about it, and demand classes at every level of education describing what it was. And almost no one actually wanted to either talk about it or solve it. To be honest, it looked like it always had: those at the bottom wanted to trade places with those at the top. No one wanted equality (although many screamed that word at every opportunity). It is just no one wanted to be the oppressed group.

More than anything else mentioned above (and there is a great deal of very valid commentary and information), I think the reason that no one wants to talk about racism in fandom is that, as much as we hate to admit it, is because it would mean a lot of people (a) admitting they are somewhat racist and (b) that some uncomfortable changes will need to be made on all sides for it to end.

I have tried on-and-off for years to get some serious social programming, including discussion of racism, at the Chicago-area conventions. But it is much easier to talk about fluff that everyone likes, or problems that can be solved with a book drive, or any other topic where people can say 'it is ok that you're different' and then whisper 'just stay away from my children'.

*sigh*

[rmjwell.livejournal.com]

I'll see what I can do for some panel fodder at Duckon, Vlad.

[dda.livejournal.com]

I'm not involved in Arisia programming this year, however I have gone to Arisia for several years and worked at Arisia for several years so I have some idea how programming gets done. And a lot of it gets done by people volunteering to do things. If you believe that race panels should be more prominent, please volunteer to moderate one. Or two. Or however many you feel are necessary to somehow counter-act all the panels about things other people have volunteered to do.

Ms. Hambly is currently scheduled to be interviewed by Victor Raymond in the Grand Ballroom; perhaps you would like to submit some questions or suggestions for topics for that interview?

In short, ask not what fandom can do for you, but what you can do for fandom.

Why are fans so unwilling to talk about race?

I can only answer for this particular fan. I've tried talking about racism and sexism and other -isms and found it very difficult as there is a huge amount of misinformation, sloppy studdies, poor statistics, unstated assumptions, entrenched worldviews and other obstacles to actual discussion. If I say the slightest thing against the "party line," I'm labeled a whatever-ist without a moment's hesitation. And frankly, I don't need that crap. If people want a discussion with me, they have to be willing to extend me the same respect and courtesy they expect in return, regardless of the colour of my skin, my chromosome mix or any other characteristic.

[holzman.livejournal.com]

If you believe that race panels should be more prominent, please volunteer to moderate one.

Ms. Hambly is currently scheduled to be interviewed by Victor Raymond in the Grand Ballroom; perhaps you would like to submit some questions or suggestions for topics for that interview?

I'll be happy to, on both counts. In this instance, I was figuring that 28 December is a bit late to suggest panels.

[fredcritter.livejournal.com]

Why are fans so unwilling to talk about race?

I don't think that's at all the case—I think fans are willing to talk (although not always reasonably or calmly) about anything, regardless of how well-informed they actually are on the topic. Which, frankly, might be why there doesn't seem to be many convention panels about race—I know if I were in charge of programming (heaven forfend), I'd think thrice about including a panel on race unless I could find a good slate of panelists who were knowledgeable, not just opinionated. I think such people are harder to find in fandom than people who know a lot about, say, costuming or the history of sf films or Heinlein's writing or fanzines of the 50's.

As always IMHO of course.

I found your post through a forward to the Arisia staff list

[happypete.livejournal.com]

The call for panel ideas went out months ago, and was repeated both online and in paper mailings on several different occasions. There is no "inexplicable gap." The explanation is simple: Arisia asked, over and over again, for panel ideas. Nobody suggested a panel on race.

Since the gap isn't inexplicable, and a "last-minute rectification" is impossible--at least if you expect the panel to be added AND included in the pocket program, etc.

My suggestions:

1. If you want to have a discussion about it, talk about it at the con. You don't need a panel. If there's one thing fen do well it's discuss and debate issues.
2. Put the idea in the hat for next year--or the next con you're going to.
3. Lay off the heavy-handed rhetoric--noone "completely ignored the last eight years of the GoH's career;" it just didn't occur to anyone to hold the panel. I should mention that the GoH's are among the recipients of the panel idea solicitation, and they are (in addition) personally asked for panel ideas. I don't know what ideas she contributed--although a look at the program precis should show the panels that she agreed to be on.

Re: I found your post through a forward to the Arisia staff list

[jrittenhouse.livejournal.com]

Good point. Any con worth its salt asks the GoHs for programming ideas or things they'd like to be on WAY WAY in advance.

a recommendation

[firinel.livejournal.com]

You may want to check out chr0me_kitten's journal, and pick her brain for ideas. She's very interested in race and fandom, she's written incredible articles on race relations inside the Buffy world, and continues to produce a pop culture/scifi zine which often touches on such issues.

A few people are talking about it...

[rennie-frog.livejournal.com]

There's a fabulous Broadway musical, Avenue Q, that has something to say on the subject. Lyrics for _Everyone's a Little Bit Racist_ can be found at:

http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/avenueq/everyonesalittlebitracist.htm

To give you a feel for Avenue Q... Imagine if Sesame Street grew up with us, and the puppets ended up with many of the same problems we have. Many of the people involved in the show were formerly employed by Sesame Steet or the Muppets.

The reason I'm bringing this up is that this might be an easy, pop-culture based way to get people to relax and start talking.